 |
| THE PROLOGUES TO EPISODE 2 AND 3 |
| >
FEB 11
Jom wrote: "Give kudos to Chris McElroy for his great prologs to the last two prequels. [you can read them by clicking on episode II and episode III on the menubar -Roderick] My only input here is that I don't believe Anakin's "death" to be in SW2. Rick McCallum has stated in an interview that SW2 ends with Anakin's and Padme's wedding. A seemingly happy ending to SW2 but with an uncomfortable air of doom surrounding it. The fall of Anakin and his betrayals will occur in SW3 it seems. And "Vader", as we know him, shows up near the end of SW3. After the famous fight with Ben. " |
| Christopher
McElroy wrote: "Okay, let me clear this up.
I don't believe Anakin's "death" to be in Episode II, either. The Emperor
is secretly corrupting Anakin from behind the scenes. I'd like to think
Episode II ends with the wedding, as well. As for III.....here's
where I'm gonna get a little controversy. As we know, two whole years pass
between Episode II and Episode III. And Queen Padme is apparently already
pregnant when Episode III begins (the movie doesn't last a whole nine months).
In one of Lucas's quotes in "The Annotated Screenplays," he said a group
of people would be fighting Vader in Episode III, presumably to get Padme
and the unborn Luke to safety. So, what I figure is, Anakin's "death" WILL
HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED BY THE TIME THE MOVIE BEGINS."What?!?" you say. "We
DON'T get to see that infamous molten pit fight?!?"
Maybe you will. But if you do, it will be in the form of a flashback. What I figure is, Lucas will present Anakin as having just "died," whereas Ben, Yoda, and Padme know differently. Vader, when we meet him, ill possibly be speaking with Anakin's voice, though much altered after his injuries. After the final battle between him and Ben, he is further injured, meaning add-ons to his body armor/life support system, resulting in the artificial voice of James Earl Jones. See, to keep Ep III from becoming the ultimate downer, he shows the tragedy of the Jedi's death as already happening, but it's not the main point of the movie. The main thrust of the movie is to get Padme to safety so she can give birth to the man who can possibly put it all right. So it's all a long chase, with all the people we've come to know in the previous two movies laying down their lives before this unstoppable killing machine to save this young woman. She makes it to safety, Luke is born, Ben walks off into the desert, end of movie. I await with anticipation what will likely be a deafening roar of protest." |
| >
FEB 12
TexasFett wrote: "I really like Christopher's idea, that would be the perfect way to keep the supprise in ESB and make Episode 3 more up beat. I don't think it will have a really happy ending like ROTJ because ANH is "a new hope" for the rebelion, it will probably end more like ESB." |
| SNS22
wrote: "I think Christopher McElroy is DEAD
ON...I think the Wedding will occur at the End of Episode Two...but won't
be the final scene..We'll definitely have a CLIFF-HANGER...And that Cliff
hanger will probably be the revelation of Anakin's alliance with Palpatine..Or
Obi-Wan (And or/Padme) finding out....
Then Episode Three begins with a trailer...telling us how Padme is now preganant with the last hope for The Galaxy...Anakin's Alliance with Palpatine has been discovered by The Jedi Council and they sent Obi-Wan (Or perhaps he went himself), or maybe an entire legion of Jedi's went after one...and The first scene of Episode Three, may very well be The Council being told of Anakin's death...Flashbacks could be used here...Then somehow Obi-Wan makes the Connection between Vader and Anakin, but by the time he does...Vader (Or perhaps Anakin isn't completely Vader yet) has started Hunting the Jedi down. And Obi-Wan and Yodi's priority becomes the protection of Padme as "The Inquisition" begins I honestly believe the first encounter where Anakin becomes Vader has to somehow involve the Council. Even though the ROTJ Novelization describes Obi- Wan and Anakin fighting, Which I think is a definite based on what we've heard and Vader's words to Obi-Wan in ANH, something has to make Anakin/Vader HATE The Council and want to exterminate them. Palpatine's request won't be enough for him. And if a Legion of Jedi were sent to exteriminate him, he would definitely want to kill them all. THEN perhaps the Encouter with Obi-Wan happens and Anakin becomes Vader...It's still not clear whether or not Anakin was Vader when the Jedi Extermination begins. I think that will definitely be the focus of Episode Three....The Deliverence Of Padme from the Clutches of The Emperor. "Fall Of The Republic" which was written by a fan, may very well describe events that happen in Episode Three. Many will sacrifice themselves to save Padme's unborn child. Which Obi-Wan does himself in ANH. I'm not too sure on The Mace Windu thing..There's no guarantee that he will be in Episode Three. It may have been just a one time thing. And I don't know if we'll see the Luke On Dagobah thing...Very possible though. Perhaps it was Darth Sideous who is killed by Yoda...intersting theory I think...." |
| >
FEB 13
Anthony
Renaud wrote: "I must say that I certainly
don't agree with Christopher McElroy on this one. Can you imagine
the outrage of the crowd (those unaware Vader is Anakin), they've been
following a trilogy...they wait two years after the second movie for the
final, they show up and the first thing they find out is that the hero
is dead! Could you imagine showing up for ROTJ and in the openning
dialogue between Threepio and Artoo they causually mention Luke was killed
trying to save Han from Jabba!? Anakin is suppose to be the great hero
in the first two movies. Sure, he might start getting tarnished during
the end of the 2nd movie, but to kill of the character off-screen would
be throwing away a wonderful screen moment. You don't often get to
kill the main character, certainly you would want to build up to the confrontation
between these two great friends, and not simply shuffle it off as happing
off-screen. The confrontation between Ben and Anakin may be perhaps the
most important moment of the trilogy, certainly one of the most climatic.
|
| >
FEB 16
JEV
wrote: "I agree with Anthony on one point,
the death(or presume death) of Anakin will happen during the third movie
and not between 2 & 3. It' just to much of a plot twist to let it out
of the big screen. But for the rest...
|
| >
FEB 18
DarthAskew wrote: "I was reading Christofer's theory and it started me thinking about how they would keep the secrets hidden and how eps 2 and 3 would end. Here is what I think. This is an editorial that was written earlier so it may seem a little weird. The
original Star Wars trilogy was a masterpiece not only for the great storytelling
of George Lucas and his spectacular special effects, but also for the spectacular
surprises that are revealed throughout the saga. The Star Wars prequels
will be another magnificent masterpiece of George Lucas. Once again
he will take us to a galaxy far, far away. This time even a longer
time ago. Many skeptics are saying that the secrets of the original
trilogy will be spoiled by the advanced story telling of the prequels.
Secrets such as Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker?s father, and the fact
that Luke and Leia are brother and sister will have no choice but to be
spoiled by the prequels. It would be impossible for the prequels
to keep such facts hidden many say. I say not true. It is very
possible to preserve all of Star Wars?s secrets without compromising any
of the prequel storyline. How, you ask. It is simple.
|
| >
FEB 19
Anthony
Renaud wrote: "To DarthAskew : First let me
say I really like your general outline. I originally thought along
similar lines. I had placed the big battle between Ben and Anakin
at the end of Ep. 2. It obviously deserves a climatic moment in the
trilogy, and it nicely parallels the duel between Luke and Vader at the
end of ESB (see my Dec 22nd posting under Repeating Themes: Ep.1 Parallels
Ep. 4). However, as was pointed out to me in the responding posting
by the Anonymous One under the same subject, Star Wars Insider #35 printed
an official timeline that states Ep.1 32 years before ANH, Ep.2 22 years
before ANH, and Ep.3, 20 years before ANH. The two years between
Ep.2 and Ep. 3 throws a monkey wrench in the whole works. Lucas has
stated that the twins are born at the end of Ep. 3. Well, if they're
conceived in Ep. 2, which they would have to be if Anakin bites it at the
end, they couldn't be born at the end of Ep. 3, over 2 years later.
Of course, we all have to remember that these aren't really human beings
and maybe they have a 2 year gestation period, but I doubt that's what
Lucas intends.
|
|
| Steve wrote: "I really like the idea of Yoda fighting with a Dark Lord of the Sith at the end of one of movies. This could explain the cave of Dagobah, and the reason the Dark Side was so strong in that place. The death of a Dark Lord on Dagobah would add in interesting dimension to the entire Cave seen in ESB." |
why
does Anakin have to be Darth Vader to betray the Jedi? Perhaps he does
kill them (directly or indirectly) and as a result of this Kenobi goes
to confront him like Luke did, hence the line, "Obi Wan once thought as
you do" but Anakin is only an inexperienced pupil and is defeated and knocked
into the fabled pool of lava in front of his new master, Emperor Palpatine,who
is cackling evily in a kind of mirror of the end scene in "Jedi". Maybe
this molten pit is in Palpatines chambers. Anakin is obviously carrying
out Palpatines orders to destroy the jedi, again this is shown in
the line "I MUST obey my master".
|
Anakin is trying to seize the unborn twins, to train them as his heirs, but Ben stands up and stops him, defeating him in the lightsaber duel and knocking him into the lava-pit (on Kessel? - cf my Falcon post), while at the same time a space-battle rages as the Queen and co. try to escape to Alderaan. There WILL be suspense - no-one knows if half the main characters - Padme, Qui-Gonn, Mace Windu, Jar-Jar - live or die. And then in the last scene (there's always been one scene only after the climax; medals, rescue, celebration) we see the appearance of Vader, at, perhaps, the Emperor's coronation, a Dark Side triumph to close the trilogy and lead in to ANH. I realise this fouls up the accepted chronology in a way, but that chronology is circular:
Anakin has turned to the Dark Side
Doesn't make sense, does it? Anakin HAS TO BE a Dark Jedi before he fights Obi-Wan, and since Darth, at least, looks to be a Sith title, he is probably already Darth Vader. And remember, Lucas' original concept for Vader had him masked with a shroud, not a cyborg (though there was always a cyborg character, first Luke's father, then Ben Kenobi). I wouldn't be surprised if a shrouded but still human Darth Vader appears BEFORE the end of Ep.3, and then the battle comes at the end. As it should." |
However, episode 2 ends with him falling into the pit. Darth Vader mysteriously appears and begins killing jedi in the beginning of episode 3. Only toward the end of the Episode is Vader's identity revealed to Obi-wan, who spends the rest of the movie attempting to protect young Luke and Leia Skywalker (with the help of Yoda). I am intrigued by the idea of Yoda duking it out against a dark Jedi. I think a Yoda fight scene would defiantly be very cool." |
In reply to myself, an idea would be, if we accepted that Qui Gonn Ginn is the evil man talked of, that he goes to Yoda on Degobah with the intention of killing him, not expecting Yoda to know who he really is. That would explain the dark cave thing which must be dealt with in these films. Anything in the existing trilogy that doesn't make sense will be explained. Also, there was a piece somewhere from an official source which I scribbled down off the Internet a year ago that I found the other day. It talks of Anakin being an Old Republic fighter pilot who gained respect and rank quickly, and over a number of years was trained by Obi Wan, but he grew impatient at the lack of progress he was making. (impatient, reckless, arrogant??). Does anyone remember this?" |
I like
the idea of Anakin being Darth Vader even before the
1) Anakin turns toward the dark side during the Jedi purge. Changes name (as a symbol of his new "faith") to "Darth" Vader. 2) Ben goes after him to try to make him come to his senses. "Obi-wan once thought as you (Luke) do". 3) After finding Anakin, they get into a spirited saber duel which Obi-wan doesn't really want. 4) During the fight Anakin is knocked into a pit of some sort but Ben tries to help him. BUT a gathering of Palpatine's "Purge" squad shows up knowing Kenobi is there. 5) Ben chooses to help himself from the "death squad" leaving Anakin there to die. This probably doesn't help Ben's friendship with Anakin. Palp's troops end up saving Anakin instead. BTW, I personally don't care for the term "Dark Jedi". I believe it is a contradiction. I prefer "darksider" instead (thanks CK). |
"First, it would be rather sloppy for GL to not show the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel.... while we all know it happens, most of the general population doesn't. Most moviegoers would just be left with a big "huh??" when they learned in the opening scroll that Anakin and Ben had a duel, that the main character was dead.... So let's forget about that idea... One way of making Ben less of a selective truth teller (aka "a liar") would be to make the line in ANH, "A young jedi, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered your father" make some sort of literal sense, rather than just being a euphestic way of saying "Actually, I killed your father.. but I had a damn good reason." Perhaps Anakin has a choice between capitulating to Obi-Wan or diving into the molten pit (a situation inversely analogous to that between Luke and Vader in ESB), and choses the latter. He would be virtually committing suicide, thus it would make sense to tell Luke that Darth Vader killed his father, especially if Anakin were already known as Darth Vader. The dead Anakin is then revived by the Emporer's dark magic into some sort of living-dead characiture of his former self, so Obi-Wan's claim that Anakin was killed by Vader would still make sense. There's an obvious problem with the simple version I've just put forward. We'd all know in Eps. IV-VI that Vader and Anakin were one and the same, so it can't be known in Ep. III that Vader and Anakin are identical. There's a way around this. Perhaps Anakin is part of the Emporer's circle, and Obi Wan goes to the Emporer's lair to confront Anakin. When Obi Wan gets there, a dark, masked Sith named Vader tells Obi Wan that he's killed Anakin. Obi Wan fights Vader, some strong hints are given that Vader and Anakin are actually one and the same-- though this fact is never once explicitly stated-- Obi Wan tries to save Vader once he's wounded him in some fashion, but Vader instead jumps into a molten pit (who knows why there's a molten pit around??). Obi Wan assumes he's killed his former student, and leaves in sorrow. Vader actually IS dead when Obi Wan leaves, let us assume. Palpatine then fishes Vader's badly burned body out of the lava using the force and then heals him and places his body into mechanical apparatus. The surprise of ESB remains intact, while Obi Wan turns out to be less of a congential liar. Thoughts?? |
"To Huntsman: Why can't it be known that Vader and Anakin are one in the same? The point of the prequels is the tragedy that Anakin falls to the dark side. This couldn't be shown unless we (as the audience) know he is Darth Vader by the end of SW3. I think keeping Vader's identity a secret would be a huge mistake. It would ruin the story and the drama. Just telling the audience that Anakin is presumed dead is NOT enough. Think about it. What purpose would it serve? Just so future generations can be surprised by ESB's "I am your father"? For each person this "surprise" only happens once. Most SW fans see the movies many times. Plus, who said you must view the movies in numerical order (once the prequels are released that is)? If they were meant to be viewed 1 thru 6, I think Lucas would have MADE them in that order. Another
possible problem is that Anakin may very well go by the name
|
"To Jom: You are correct when you say that the point of the trilogy is that Anakin falls to the dark side, but I disagree when you say that that couldn't be shown unless we know that he is Darth Vader. Anakin's fall can be completely realized without the name Darth Vader ever coming into the equation. Due to some character flaw Anakin falls to the dark side, Ben is forced to fight him, and eventually 'kill' him. The tragedy is complete. Because the story continues, the character of Darth Vader will have to be introduced at the very end, but revealing that Anakin is Darth Vader adds nothing to the tragedy. For any emotional weight to be added by that fact, the viewer would have to already know who Darth Vader is (or rather becomes), and those viewers would already know that Anakin is Darth Vader. For new viewers (and future generations) who don't know the evil Darth Vader represents, the only significance is that Anakin is still alive. Again, this can be revealed without equating Darth Vader to Anakin Skywalker. So the Anakin/Darth Vader equality is insignificant within the framework of the Prequels because the Darth Vader 'character' has no import. How can anyone think it tragic that he becomes Darth Vader, when the character Darth Vader means nothing to them, UNLESS they show him (Vader) running around, performing evil deeds and being a bad-ass for a good chunk of the third movie. At this point, it would become necessary to reveal his identity, otherwise it will seem the Anakin tragedy would have been aborted prematurely by happening early in the third film (his 'death'). But I don't think that will happen. I think that the fall of Anakin will be the main theme and plot cumulating in the final duel between him and Obi-wan at the climax of the third movie (and consequently the climax of the trilogy), thus completing the story and completing the tragedy. During the denouement, Obi shuffles Luke off to Tatooine, and the Emperor introduces his new Dark Lord who vows to exterminate the Jedi (while a statue of the Emperor is being erected, paralleling the end of ROTJ where it is being toppled). Why introduce Vader at all? Well, so that at the beginning of the 4th movie, it creates a tie to the previous trilogy. Now, does one reveal that Anakin is still alive? That's a separate question. The jury's still out on that one. I don't think it is necessary. But if you did, then I would argue that is would become necessary to show that he is Darth Vader BECAUSE as viewer of the series, it would be incongruent to watch ANH knowing that the protagonist is still alive, yet the movie reveals nothing of his actions or whereabouts. So while the Anakin/Vader duality is unimportant to the prequels, it becomes important during ANH, if they reveal Anakin survives. So if they go that route, perhaps they end with him being fitted into his new outfit and claiming his new name. But I don't think it is necessary to reveal he survives and therefore unecessary to reveal he is Darth Vader." |
"I disagree with the last post by Anthony. In An New Hope Ben tells Luke that his father was killed by "a young apprentice of mine named Darth Vader". If we see Ben kill Anakin then this deosn't make sense. Lucas is not out to leave Anakins fate a mystery. Why is everyone obsessed with that idea???" |
| Nathaniel
Reed wrote:
"The suggestion that Anakin may become 'Darth Vader' *before* donning the infamous black visage is quite clever : the film implies that the 2 events came together, but Obi-Wan's dialogue could be 'stretched out in time', "Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker ....... and became Darth Vader" . He *could've* continued to say that as Darth Vader he started to betray his colleagues, until a duel forced him to wear the black armour. However, it would be more dramatic to show a vivid, tangible, and immediate transformation to the evil persona." |
| Jom
wrote:
"To Anthony: Well, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I just think that part of the tragedy is the fact Anakin becomes the "evil" Darth Vader. I also believe that it is important to show why Anakin did what he did (or will do) as Darth Vader. I still
think Anakin can change his name once he turns to the dark side
As
far as "future generations" are concerned, most of the people seeing
I appreciate
your great and sound argument but I'm just have to leave it
|