• MAR 30

• MAY 14

Now, this would make Ben bald face liar.  But think about this.  When 
Luke is talking to Yoda in ROTJ about Vader telling him that he was his 
father.  Yoda clearly feels that Luke should not have found out about 
that ("Told you, did he?"  Something else about it being "unexpected" 
and "troubling.").  Maybe Yoda and Ben just wanted to keep the truth 
from Luke to protect him until he was truly ready to face such a 
horrible thought.  They (Ben and Yoda) wanted Luke to believe he came 
from a powerful and good line of Jedis, not from the hatchet man of the 
galaxy and evil incarnate.  No one has ever said that Jedis have to tell 
the truth.  They are not Boy Scouts, they are Jedi.  There is a big 
difference between being honorable and good and always telling the 
truth.  Sometimes the truth is a very dangerous thing.  Either way Lucas 
got himself into a bit of a pickle with that conversation in Ben's 
house. 

Also, if I am not mistaken.  James Earl Jones has said that he will be 
doing a small bit in Ep 3.  You folks can say all you want about the 
name and the voice and the costume, but Darth Vader is the guy in black 
with JEJ's voice.  PERIOD.  I will take bets on this.  You will not see 
older Anakin calling himself Vader and you will not see the guy in the 
black mask talking with a little weenie voice.  Now whether or not we 
see Vader in the very end or in the last third of the movie is 
debatable, but that is about it.  The information on JEJ came from 
TheForce.Net, so it may be wrong, but it is in line with what I believe. 

Lastly, I do not think we will ever see the birth of Leia, or know that 
Padme (or whoever) has twins.  Clearly, Ben is unaware of another 
Skywalker, but somehow Yoda knows (but then again Yoda seems to know 
pretty much everything).  I had some other thoughts, but I have lost 
them.  Until then . . ."

• MAY 14

By the end of SW3 if Anakin is not shown to actually be Darth Vader 
destroys the whole point of the prequels.  These movies were supposed to 
give us a better understanding of why Anakin made the decisions he did.  
Having Anakin turn to the dark side and then "killing" him off is a 
cheap way out.  Then, only to have someone named Darth Vader pop out of 
nowhere seems ridiculous to me.  The tragedy of Anakin's fall just won't 
be complete if he just "dies".  We, as the audience, must be shown the 
outcome or else whole point will be lost.  I just don't see the point in 
risking this just to keep something secret when practically everyone 
knows what that secret is.  I'd even argue that someone 20 years from 
now will probably already know the outcome even if they'd never seen the 
movies, just with heresay and all.  Plus Lucas is making the movies for 
us now, not someone 20 years from now. 

This, of course, wouldn't even be an issue if it weren't for the fact 
Vader wears a mask.  Why is it that people seem to think Vader must have 
a secret indentity just because he wears a mask?  He's not Batman for 
crying out loud.  I even think that it might be a good idea that 
somewhere in SW3 when Anakin turns to the dark side he will change his 
name to Darth Vader as a symbol of his new found "faith".  This could 
occur well before he is injured by Ben in their infamous fight.  It is 
also possible that this name change could be revealed to Ben only (along 
with the audience) but be kept a secret to the SW universe as a whole 
(ie Padme, other Jedi, whoever).  Hence the former Anakin Skywalker 
could be pronounced died to all but we would know differently....many 
things are possible... 

I know I'm gonna get fried for this because it seems most SW fans seem 
to have the opposite opinion but I had to get this off my 
chest....thanks for reading my rant....any thoughts?" 

• MAY 15

However, there will still be plenty of emotional impact for the 
hypothetical viewer 20 years down the road who is seeing the entire 6 
chapter story in its proper order.  These impact points just won't fall 
at all the same exact points in the plot as they did for present day 
viewers who saw Episodes 4-6 first.  

"From a certain point of view" (I couldn't resist) when the whole series 
is viewed chronologically, the battle between Vader and Luke in ESB will 
still have plenty of suspense, even though the viewer knows what Luke 
does not.  However, the payoff line will not be "Luke, I'm your 
father."  as it was for all of us seeing the movies "out of order."  
Instead, it will be the moment after when we wait to see Luke's 
reaction.  That will be the big suspense element for the viewer watching 
all 6 episodes in order.  Will Luke really be "A New Hope", or will he 
follow in the footsteps of his dad and put the galaxy even farther in a 
hole?  Think how scary it will be for the viewer when Luke leaves 
Dagobah in ESB with his training incomplete.  We will know why Yoda and 
Obi-Wan are sweatin' it so bad.  

Also, will the Hope be dashed upon the failure of Obi-Wan yet again?  
Viewers of ANH will be saying "Oh Boy, here we go again with Obi-Wan 
trying to train a Skywalker.  We know what a flop that was last time."  
I'm going to be shouting at the screen while the Falcon flies to 
Alderaan, "Hey Ben, cut it out.  Luke, put down that lightsaber and 
floaty stinger thing.  Go play space chess with 3-PO.  Ben, haven't you 
screwed it up for everybody enough already?  Somebody call Yoda, STAT!"  
Also, think of the extra electricity everyone will feel about the trench 
run at the Death Star in ANH, when we all know what Vader doesn't know 
about why "The Force is strong in this one."  There will be the added 
excitement of Vader torturing his daughter and trying to blast his son, 
all in one movie.  

In summary, (finally!) is that the audience really needs to know that 
Anakin becomes Vader.  The rollercoaster ride will still be there in 
Episodes 4-6 with this plot point revealed, but the dips and rises will 
be at new points.  Comments?"

This would be strange and confusing if we have already seen Obi-Wan 
teaching Anakin, but we don't know that Anakin is Vader. The audience 
would say "What? Darth Vader wasn't Obi-wan's pupil! Anakin was!"  In 
which case they would either think that Ben was nuts or they would make 
the connection.  It would be a poor way to let the cat out of the bag.  
Indeed, it would just be too confusing, as he would seem to be 
mentioning a very important plot point in passing.  I don't think Lucas 
is going to manage to keep this a secret.  

But that doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a surpise.  After all, if 
we've seen Anakin/Vader renounce his past and try to erase all trace of 
it, why would we expect him to suddenly change his mind??  Why would we 
expect him to suddenly ask Luke to join him right after he has cut off 
Luke's hand?  

I actually think that the "I am your father" scene will be MORE dramatic 
for those who haven't seen it if they DO know the truth.  Imagine: you 
know that Vader is Luke's father.  You can't believe Vader is about to 
finally fight his own son.  You're amazed that the fight goes on as long 
as it does without Vader cracking.  You flip your shit when Vader cuts 
off HIS SON'S hand.  Then, just when you think that Vader is truly evil, 
just when you think he is about to finish Luke off ("You are 
beaten")...the other shoe falls.  Vader is not who you thought he 
was.  

I'm speaking figuratively in that last sentence of course.  Those who 
talk about this scene as if it just revolves around a gimmicky suprise 
are belittling it.  It's still one of the most dramatic moments in film 
history even if you know the literal truth beforehand, because the drama 
doesn't come from its being a gimmick.  The drama is that Darth Vader 
might somehow be a good man."

Forgive me if I become too deep on this issue, but I think that George Lucas 
is very aware of the powerful imagery he creates.  Just see how dismissive he 
becomes when asked about the religious/mythic overtones of the trilogy and yet 
see how he allowed an entire museum exhibit to the subject!  From the red 
devil costumes of the imperial guards (complete with Force pitchforks!) to the 
Valhalla warrior king funeral pyre where the body of Vader figuratively goes 
to hell in flames as the camera pans up to follow the smoke that escapes the 
mask (Plato would agree that this is the spirit of the man escaping its 
earthly confines--and what confines Vader endured!), GL is quite deliberate. 
His characters, while archetypal, I maintain are FAR FROM SIMPLE.  And I think 
many fans would agree that Vader/Anakin is perhaps the most complex in the 
series to date.  This, in itself, gives me great hopes for the story of the 
prequels.  If they are Shakespearean, as rumor has it, then they will be 
highly structured and the chances of a 'Surprise Vader'  gimmick are slight. 

Anyone agree/disagree?"

• MAY 20

Why is it that some believe it will be Lucas intention to view the SW 
saga in chronological order?  This is not nesessarily so.  IF GL wanted 
fans to view them in chronological order he would have made them that 
way. 

Also, if GL does try this hidden identity trick what's he gonna do about 
Ben's lie in ANH?  Is GL gonna create another "Darth Vader" to kill 
Luke's dad?  NO....any future viewer of the series is gonna know Ben 
lied after watching the first three films.  Sure Ben could have had 
several "apprentices" that turned and one calls himself Darth Vader but 
what about Anakin?  I'm sure someone could come up with some absured 
senerio but why go to all that trouble when GL's intention is NOT 
nesessarily to have the movies viewed chronologically? 

Just some more thoughts...any others? 

jom  "Darth Blowhard"

I'd have to say that Vader/Anakin's identity is unnecessary for the 
prequels, and would have to 'accuse' you all of thinking too much in terms 
of the current films. 

Anakin's downfall should already have enough potential to be tragic 
without his emergence as Darth Vader. From what the current rumors seem to 
indicate, this fellow Anakin Skywalker, from his very birth, appears to 
have this 'destiny' that is carved out for him, that he has the power to 
solve much of the galaxy's stife and troubles, and unite it for all time. 

But of course, Anakin doesn't do that. He'd rather have vengance upon 
those that wronged him, and perhaps force people to be nice to one another 
instead of leaving it up to themselves, as seen in the game TIE fighter. 
Things the Empire is known for. The mere fact that he chooses the dark 
side and is apparently destroyed by Kenobi still makes it all rather 
tragic. 

What is being forgotten here is the importance of that one scene in ESB in 
Bespin. It is THEN that the entirety of Anakin's fall is realized, and the 
full horror and darkness comes to light. It becomes all the more dark 
after seeing the Prequels as well, not to mention it being pretty bad as 
it was. 

Of course the Anakin tragedy will seem like a 'cheap way out', at least by 
some standards. Many movies take this cheap way out and are still 
considered good films. What I'm trying to say is that the Prequels add the 
bulk of the story but not all of it. Darth Vader can be introduced at the 
end without the connection to Anakin being signifigant, because that link 
is made in ESB, it changes the immensity of that scene as it is. The 
Prequels are not there to explain the story in themselves; if you were 
watching them start to finish and it ended at the third part without 
the Anakin/Vader being made, would you really feel robbed if it was filmed 
well? I don't think so, that's only because we've already seen ESB. Think 
of these movies more as a whole, and for everything to have its 
proper temporal place. 

not to mention, I don't think that as Lucas does this he is thinking ahead 
20 years from now. As someone suggested, things will not have changed that 
much. Lucas is thinking HUNDREDS of years from now, when all the 
connections have long been forgotten, and SW has gone from being a 'modern 
myth' to just being a plain old 'myth'. By that time, the fact that the 
middle three films were relesed first will be like a trivia question to 
people, who will likely assume they were made in chronological order. 

The best thing for Lucas to do would be for the Emperor to allude to the 
identity of a new 'Darth Vader' before the Anakin/Kenobi duel, something 
the audience can take to be him forseeing. That would be the most logical 
way for him to introduce Darth without making the connection. 

To sum up then, the Prequels are about the fall of Anakin Skywalker. But 
so are the original films, it's just that those segments of them mean 
less without the Preqs. to back them up. The new films can be entirely 
tragic all on their own without Vader's connection to Anakin being shown, 
because that is the tragedy that only becomes realized in the fifth part 
of the structure as a whole. Anthony makes a good point in his initial 
statement, because I don't think the audience is going to loathe Vader 
until parts IV and especially V. If he's this guy who comes in at the end 
and is alluded to before hand, he would in later generations be this 
inscentive to watch the next film and see what happens with Kenobi and 
this new villian. 

What the surprise would then be is that the next film takes place 20 years 
later of course... 

Remember, the Prequels need the current films too, the full story of 
what's already been told is also needed."

Now Jom argued that not showing simply destroys the whole point of the 
prequels.  That would depend, I suppose, on what exactly you think the 
point of the prequels is.  Is it simply the back story for the current 
trilogy, or is it parts 1-3 of a 6 part story.  There is a subtle 
difference.  If it is simple just the back story, one needs to reveal 
how all the characters in the main story got to where they were at the 
beginning of the main story, and thus how Anakin becomes Darth Vader. 
However, looking at it in terms of the first half of one story, one 
doesn't need to reveal Anakin is Darth Vader in part 3 when one is 
revealing it in part 5. 

Now several of the contributors talked about the resonance or the impact 
or the great drama created by revealing  that Anakin is Darth Vader at 
the end of Ep. 3.  I say that is complete bunk.  Jom commented that 
everybody already knows or will know that Anakin is Darth Vader.  He 
says that Lucas is making the movies for us now, not a generation 20 
years from now, and by then everybody would have heard about it anyway. 
Well if everybody already knows that Anakin is Darth Vader, then why 
would Lucas need to tell you something you already knew.  If Anakin 
falls in the molten pit, and then several scenes later the Emperor 
introduces his new servant Darth Vader, does he need to say, "...who 
incidentally used to be Anakin Skywalker."  You already knew it.  How 
has that statement caused any resonance or dramatic impact for you if 
you already knew.  Admittedly it would be cool to see Anakin being 
fitted into the armour.  Cool, but not necessary. 

SineadR talked about seeing the man he could have been and the man he 
becomes.  Anakin's evil side will have to be revealed before he puts on 
the armour of Darth Vader, otherwise why would he and Obi-wan duel?  We 
will already have seen the evil he had  become, so what need to then 
show him to be Darth Vader.    SineadR mentioned the man he becomes, 
the galactic henchman, the abusive father, the twisted genius.  All 
these Anakin can be without the name Vader. 

Now for those that may not have seen Ep.4-6, at that point in the story 
the name Darth Vader is meaningless. It has no weight.  It has not yet 
been associated with the extinction of the Jedi, the killing of Obi-wan 
Kenobi, the torture of Princess Leia, etc, etc.  If you are already 
aware of the evil it represents, then you are already aware that Anakin 
is Darth Vader, and reiterating it achieves nothing.  So if Anakin 
suddenly declares himself Darth Vader and you don't know what Vader will 
go on to do, there is NO dramatic resonance. 

Finally, in response to Jom's statement that having Anakin fall to the 
dark side and then 'killing him' off is a cheap way out, all I can say 
is, isn't that what a tragedy is?  Excuse my ignorance, English studies 
were while ago, but I was under the general impression that a tragedy is 
regarded as the fall of a great man, often do to some inherent character 
flaw (although that last may only be in Shakespearean tragedies).  Death 
was most often the result for the protagonist in Shakespearean 
tragedies.  It is not a cheap way out, it is the classical ending for 
such a story. 

So concluding, once again let me say that I'm not pro-'keeping the 
secret', but people's arguments so far a failed to convince me that the 
secret must be revealed at the end Ep. 3.  And as for the idea that 
Anakin takes the name Darth Vader before he becomes the man in the iron 
mask, I think that unlikely.  Anakin is going to be a hero of the 
Republic before his downfall, or so we are told.  Means he'll be a very 
public figure.  People would take note if he were to go around calling 
himself Darth Vader all of a sudden.  And it wouldn't be a fact quickly 
forgotten once Vader starts his reign of terror.   It seemed Vader's 
identity was largely kept secret, or that was the impression Ep 4-6 
gave.  Now sure, he might have changed his name, and told no one but 
Ben, just before the molten pit, but what's the point.  I think it would 
be far more symbolic to have the new identity coincide with the new 
look.  And if Lucas does decide to reveal that Anakin is Darth Vader, 
perhaps his quest to exterminate the Jedi comes not as a result of what 
the Jedi have done to him (like in Jamie Wire's hypothesis) but rather 
as a direct result of what Ben does to him.  Sure he might have fallen 
to the dark side by the time of the duel, but being dumped in a molten 
pit reaaaalllly pissed him off. 

I happily invite responses."

• JULY 11

Well if everybody already knows that Anakin is Darth Vader, then why 
would Lucas need to tell you something you already knew.  If Anakin 
falls in the molten pit, and then several scenes later the Emperor 
introduces his new servant Darth Vader, does he need to say, "...who 
incidentally used to be Anakin Skywalker."  You already knew it.  How 
has that statement caused any resonance or dramatic impact for you if 
you already knew. 
 

I don't think the impact of the revelation is as much the point as the way 
it would change Luke's character or orur perception of him.  Knowing who 
vader is beforehand adds a new element to the story.  In literary terms, 
it's called dramatic irony, and it happens when the audience knows something 
major about the character that the character doesn't know.  The impact for 
the audience is watching him make decisions based upon what he thinks he 
knows about himself that are tragic in light of what the truth really is. 

Knowing Vader's identity makes Luke a MUCH more tragic character.   He's 
essentially lived a life that isn't his own, manipulated both by fate and by 
Ben and Yoda to be the instrument of his father's destruction.  This is a 
father he's always wondered about and thought about and he sets out to be a 
jedi in part to avenge his father's murder by offing Vader.   Then, he finds 
out that the person he's hated and wanted revenge against IS his father.  I 
think you lose a major part of Luke's character if you don't know this going 
in.  It also makes his stand against the dark side that much more 
meaningful.  I personally would rather have the extra depth and perspective 
added to Luke's character than have it sacrificed just to keep Vader's 
identity a surprise."

I don't mean to jump in without understanding everything.  Myabe I  
know too little, but it seems to me that we will sort of know that  
Anakin survives the famous volcano battle. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Episode 4, Ben says, "Vader betrayed  
and murdered your father."  To me, that means Vader existed as Vader  
before the end of Episode 3 by this manner:  he somehow "helps"  
the Jedi, while still advancing The Empire.  Kenobi sees Vader as  
Anakin and when realizing this, Vader betrays everything good about  
Anakin, and the Jedi . I hate to sound religous, murdered his soul  
with evil.  Except for Luke, isn't Anakin that has the potential to  
save the galaxy  (being full of the force?) 

Vader also must be known to us as Anakin in order to enhance the  
redemption theme, as well as the arrival of Luke.  Vader reveals to  
the audience that he "hadn't felt a presence since..." and that he  
confronted Kenobi as Vader in the presence of his *former* master  
(Yoda? this Darth Sidious?) and tells Kenobi "you should not have  
come back!" and "When you left me, I was but learner, now I am the  
master".   It's with this line that I believe that Kenobi and Vader  
(Anakin) met again and instead of taking the opportunity to kill his  
friend, his student, he chops off his hand, his right hand! (a  
parallel to Episode 6).  Also, this will play up the even deep-dark  
theme this trilogy is supposed to portray. 

A key scene in Episode 4 that tells us Vader is Anakin, rather  
than being the villain that killed Anakin, is when Kenobi sees Luke  
heading to the Falcon.  Ben then looks to Vader with a sly grin  
(emphasizing that it will take the *good son* to save the *dark  
father*), and allows himself to be struck down.  Ben's reference to  
striking down and more power supports this.  Isn't that the reason  
Luke Skywalker's adventure is told in the first place?"

Luke and Leia are conceived during home leave from the war, Anakin  
returns to his frustrated apprenticeship, then 'disappears', officially  
missing in action. Either he willingly goes to Palpatine, or is enticed.  
Jedi begin to disappear in mysterious circumstances, and Obi-Wan (and  
Padme) suspect the culprit. Kenobi confronts his pupil, they duel,  
Anakin receives his armour.  

The Endor landing platform dialogue comes to mind with Anakin declaring  
to his former tutor at their duel that his Skywalker name no longer has  
any meaning for him."

hatred (the dark side).  It was jealosey and hatred that got Anakin into 

the molten pit, and it was recklessness and hatred that got Luke into a 
duel he was UNPREPARED for.  Seeing Luke get fitted for that hand 
already makes me think he is following his father's footsteps on the 
road to the Dark Side.  I wouldn't know that unless I knew that Anakin 
received his transformation in Epi 3. 

    Uncle Owen was Obi-Wans brother (right?).  It is clear that he knows 

Lukes father turned to evil, but does he also know that he is Vader? 
The reason I bring this up is that someone said that Anakin was a HUGE 
hero and that if he changed his name everyone would know, and keeping 
that knowledge from Luke would be impossible. All of the Rebellion would 

have heard of the "secret" if he walked around as Darth Vader  before 
being suited.  So at least in the movie if we DO find out , the secret 
will only be known by us (the viewers) and a small few (Ben, Yoda, 
Emperor...perhaps other minor characters). 

    But, Anakin being an evil dude will be VERY clear throughout the 
entire 3rd film.  He will probably be hunting down Jedi left and right. 
With Obi-Wan finally catching up with him at the end.  The 3rd film will 

end with him being suited up, and the Emperor making some public 
announcement of his new "council" including Darth Vader.  Obi-wan and 
any other surviving jedi will sense that VAder is truely Anakin (if they 

knew Anakin) whereas NON-Jedi character will be fooled by his outfit. 
If Anakin were to make his identity know to all Darth Vader would also 
have to always be in the look out for enemies from his past, so the 
secret is also to HIS benefit. 

That is my my 2 cents worth.  Comment?"

• JUNE 15